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January 07, 2004

Comments

do something about it, You will catch no flak from me I agree with you 100% That is a very good idea to give to people that can not seem to control there impluses to go into the game. I have read about the same firewall blocks and port blocks. Good advice as far as I am concerned.

I wholly agree that too much of Second Life is sex oriented. It's one of the things that bothers me the most about SL. This convenient, armchair society we have created, where anything goes and illusion is reality. I am most distressed that given the mantle of anonymity so many people submit to their most animalistic desires. Without the constraints of a normal, moralistic society, is this what we would choose to be?

From several of these posts I see people who want to quit SL but can't. I would suggest this: Second Life can be blocked by any hardware or software firewall. I would recommend having it blocked, then having a friend or relative outside of the household set the password on said firewall. The essence is, you make that choice once, then you can't go back easily. It also makes you accountable to that person who holds the keys (password) to your addiction. I will probably catch some flak for even suggesting that, but if I can save even one family...

I never thought I would say this, But I agree with most of what Dave is saying. Cold Turkey is the way you have to do it uninstall the game if you care any for your partner then you can do this. I have said this in other post time heals a wounds, but if you cross this line, I am not sure that this is a wound that will heal. It would not have for many anyway so I stand corrected on saying time heals ALL wounds. This is something that will be life changing for you and your partner. Think about it if the shoe was on the other foot how would you feel??? Be carfull of feelings on the game I understand they can be quit strong, but I bet if you meet in rl this person will not be who you think they are. This is only my opion. All I can say is think before you act and be very carefull... Good Luck


One more foot note the feelings for this sl person will fade if you stop all communication it is up to you to make that move...

Sounds like you know what you have to do: choose. You can't have both people - it's unfair to the SL person and HORRIBLY unfair to RL person. That you're even considering it means you have to stop NOW. You've gone too far already, and it sounds like you know that, but there's still time to stop. You're already cheating on RL person - can you imagine the pain you will cause him, and yourself in the long run, if you go ahead and meet SL person? I can't tell you what to do, but I can ask: PLEASE don't meet SL person. You can still redeem yourself, or you can make a decision you and your loved one will both undoubtedly regret very deeply. If you're going to meet SL person, have the guts to leave RL person first.

I thought I had it all figured out and I had control of this thing but now I am back on sl and I am reeling out of control with someone on sl. I am starting to consider meeting this person, whom I have known now for almost a year. We talk outside of sl and I am not single! I know I do not want to leave my partner, but I dont want to stop talking to this person either-at all. I'm screwed. I can tell you that there is no way I will uninstall, I am too addicted to him! I think of him all of the time. I dont know how to do what I need to do. I was in this predicament a year ago but I backed off. I thought I could come back in small doses but apparently not.

Wonderful blog. I too was getting much too much involved in SL, till I turned it off a few weeks ago. But, I'm not sure it's fair to call it an addiction. The real draw of Second Life is the way that, in some respects, it really is a kind of reality. Certainly we're able to imagine it as that, and that's a big part of its appeal. You really can build a "Life" there, to some extent, with real friends, real property you made yourself, etc. It's not true and not fair to say that it's all pretend.

Since that's so, I'm not sure why someone can't decide that he values that part of his life more than the "Real" part. I'm not suggesting that he should abandon his family and his job - but people make these kinds of choices all the time. Do you approve of a person leaving his wife and children for his secretary? Probably not. Does that make that an addiction, or a retreat from reality? Also probably not. It's just a bad choice. What about someone who really really loves to sail or play chess, and his job suffers as a result, or his marriage? Etc.

One thing you see from the blog is the centrality of sex and Second Life. There are just incredible numbers of night clubs and the like. And, the people who get in trouble are pretty much always doing it through sex. SL is enticing and frustrating. The women are all supermodels; where else did I ever get a chance to swing with supermodels? Men are very affected visually; this is powerful. (I'll leave it to a woman to explain their side of things; I imagine that the chance to be a supermodel is also powerful.) On the other hand, the actual fulfillment of sex drives just doesn't live up to the advertisement (in this one man's humble opinion.)
For this reason, I'd imagine that a simple changing of one's Profile to say that you're not here for that, or to add RL details about your wife..., would be a big help to anyone to get in less trouble. Context is always key.

do something about it: Thank you!!! I have strongly considered starting a site to address what people should know about SL before going in. If and when I do so, your site will be my first link. I will post on your site, and will help in any other way I can. SL addiction is an enormously important subject, and I hope you are able to build a real resource for people facing these issues. Do something about it indeed - I commend you for living up to that name.

tired: "throughout our rows since all this i have called him a prude, weak, wimp and these things have really hurt him..." You THINK? I bet that's done nothing to help his ED, either. Sex for men is so much about confidence and self-esteem, I worry that your comments will just make matters worse. I'm way out of my depth here (and I'm sure it's not just DrTime who thinks so), but I do know that sex and relationships are 99% about communication, so no matter what either of you wants or is willing to get out of your relationship, you have to talk about it. If he won't talk to you about why he has changed his stance on porn, he should probably talk to someone, but it doesn't sound like you've created an emotional environment in which he feels safe to level with you. It sounds like he found an outlet for his sexuality (SL), gave it up for you, found another outlet (porn), got in trouble for it, and now is just without a direction to go. Who knows what other issues he may have that are getting in the way of sex for him - I can't speak from experience there; I've usually been the more outgoing between my wife and me (at least until SL came along), but I'm also free of many of the influences that turn sex into an ugly, shameful, scary thing for so many people (e.g. religion). There's also the complicating factor of starting IVF, and all the implications and stress that brings. It sounds like he's changing; maybe trying to branch out, but is unsure how to do so, and keeps trying things that alienate you.

I am utterly unqualified to help you, other than just offering friendly advice, but that's my advice: talk - one way or another, you two have to air your feelings, wants, desires, etc., in a setting that allows both of you to speak freely without fear of retribution for wanting something the other sees as unacceptable. You can't change what turns someone on - all you can do is accept it, or not, as you are able. But you can't do anything about each other's turn-ons until you know what they are.

I am absolutely shocked at the dearth of resources for dealing with this very real problem. This blog is the best resource I have found to date. I want to change that. I have purchased the url www.secondlifeaddiction.net. I have set up an, albeit rudimentary, website and forum where people can find others who have been through this. I think the best support we will ever have is each other.
I would very much appreciate all the help I can get with this site. Even if you could just post your story there, it may make all the difference when someone else reads it. I would also like to thank everyone here for this blog, it has helped me to know I am not alone.
If anyone has any suggestions or comments on how to improve the site, please, please email me.

hi thanks for the advice dave.
you are right about our sex life, it hasn't been idyllic but it was ok.my hubby has a bit of an ED problem, i always felt we dealt well with it and i always told him how amazing he was (don't worry not in a condescending way - i really did think he was amazing). he doesn't have very much confidence in himself sep in the bedroom but he always said that he felt great with us and that i did and said the right things. i have always been the more sexually outgoing of the two of us and i think thats another reason why i'm shocked and insulted at what he was doing behind my back. throughout our rows since all this i have called him a prude, weak, wimp and these things have really hurt him, i have to admit at the time i wanted to hurt him and i do think he has been all of these things. i have apologised for hurting him but i have also explained why i used these words. i am also annoyed that he has told me all these years that he has never been interested in porn, i feel so betrayed because i know so many other people are into it and some of them are my friends. i had asked him on occasion what his experiences had been, but he said that he'd only ever watched a movie at uni that one of his mates had.
hr has told me that he has only ever looked at porn on a very random basis since we met (and he's been introduced to the internet (by me!!!) he says it could be once in 2 months for 10 mins to a couple of times a day that it isn't something he needs. because of his ed prob i know (and he has told me) that he doesn't get turned on in that way, he says its more 'tittilation' (i hate that bloody word. he says that he feels it is normal for men and that he will look at it in the future but knows he was wrong the other day to do so.
i'm trying to get through this cos did i mention we were up for ivf treatment, well it started yesterday, we were very lucky to get to this stage, so i'm taking out of it that someone is smiling down on us. so we decided to put all of this out of our minds for now and try to be our normal selves before all this. it was really lovely forgetting about all of this. when i was 'under' during the procedure all i could think of was my hubby and that i loved him and even though i could barely breath i was so out of it, i told him i loved him. it meant so much to him. and then he looked after me for the rest of the day.
i see what i'm missing out on by eating myself up with this but i'm so scared that if i let my defences down he'll get complacent and do something stupid again, and i don't think i could handle that.
i went to a counsellor last week too and although it was good getting it all out i think i'm going to have t change to another, cs it was like telling your granny about internet porn, the woman doesn't use a computer and although she understands relationships i think the internet is a whole new kettle of fish and i don't want to spend half my session explaining all the internet stuff.
thanks for all

His Angel: Wow, so it sounds like SL guy was just a creep after all (no offense, but unless I misread your euphemism, it sounds like he behaved wildly inappropriately for someone seeing someone he cares about). All things considered, his showing his true colors sounds like it couldn't have come at a better time. Just another piece of good fortune for you - it sounds like you have all the ingredients for a long, happy life with a wonderful man: perspective, experience, respect, trust; knowing how good you've both got it. I'm betting you two will face even more difficult challenges (they're out there) with real understanding and hope - and that is a recipe for a long and successful marriage. I wish you many, many happy decades together. Congratulations - you both deserve a ton of credit.

(and you're welcome!) ;^)

tired: I hope you are able to work through all the issues with your husband. It sounds like he was acting inappropriately; cheating on you in (and out of) SL, but that as best you can tell, he has stopped. But then he looked at porn, which you say is inappropriate for a man trying to work on his marriage. Would it help to view porn as something like methadone? He's lost something in giving up SL for you (though something he shouldn't have had to begin with), and it's probably hard for him. It sounds like he's genuinely willing to work with you, but that his sex life is in some way unsatisfying. That sounds more like everyone's story than some insurmountable barrier to an otherwise idyllic marriage. I have no business inquiring into your sex life, but I can't help but wonder if there are ways you can work with him to provide him some of the spice that's missing, in ways that are acceptable to you. He obviously has needs that are going unmet, however repugnant they may be, but the solution seems not to be to get angry with him. Perhaps the solution is just to work with him, identify those needs, and find mutually acceptable ways of meeting them...?

Well... Since I last wrote.. I have cancelled my Sl account and un installed sl from my computer! yay... so how did it all come about... Dave- No I didnt tell hubby I spoke to SL man after speaking to him...as I was giveing hubby all details, he said to me that he didnt want any more information, but that he understood, and that I was fixing the situation (thats why I felt I had no one to fully talk too about it, but this has since changed: A friend (girl) has been a great support). I thought I started being disiplined on SL and tryed not talking to this SL man.. however (I messed up) one day while I was on I sliped in my temptation and IM'ed him.. after talking for a few min my heart raced and I said I would like to see him so.. he tp me to where he was at... a private room.. where he began to mmmmmmm in front of me! -I was not expecting that! so I tp'ed out of there straight away.. :( I then saw that I was being used for SL mans own gradification and that I was being devalued. This helped to take alot of the pain away. I think I was in so much pain, cause I beleived the lie... that I was missing out on something.. when Im not and infact I can see that what I was doing is hurting my self and the dignity I have.

So I realised that I needed to cut all contact since, I was not being honoring to my husband. So I said goodbuyes. I now havent been on SL for almost a week. The pain of the SL man comes and goes.. but is not always there like before.

Dr time.. your question of how I would feel if it was my hubby... When I first got married I found out that my hubby had a similar situation in his life... he corrected it quickly... but no I was not as understanding.. but after going through it this my self.. I was able to appologise to him for being soo. For me it was more painful being in the position I am in (being stupid) and he has been in, in the past then being on the receiving end... as I said that to hubby.. he agreed that he felt that was too. I will never do anything like this again!! Horrible sour after taste that is taking a while to fade.. knowing I have been used and that it was my fault is the worst feellng (I have noone else too blame)!!! I have cryed alot the last five days over this.. but I am glad my obsession is over.

Lastly... every night I show my husband just how much I love him!!!!!! he is so amazing!!! I am seeing that those who are forgiven soooo much also love soooo much... so I have a lot of loving too do .so I better get back to it.

Dave and Drtime... I can not thank you both enough!!!!:) Both of your advice was amazing as you came from different angles to fixing a problem..... thankyou thankyou thankyou :)

hi again
i'm getting so tired of all this 6 months ago i was so happily married or so i thought.
my husband was on sl as i have said and then moved onto emailing 2 girls from a newly setup email address, aswell as their romance/porn time together in sl.
when i found out he stopped well i had changed his passwords so he had no choice.... anyway we stumbled along then about 4 weeks later i found out he had put sl back onto his computer, i found out straight away and he said it was to contact these girls and tell them not to try to contact him as we were working things out.
and they had replied saying not to contact them again. they knew i had found out because i emailed both of them and told them he was a mentally ill cripple uncle in his 60's who was causing our family a lot of distress doing these perverse things and that the photos he sent them were not of himself at all....... you get the 'woman scorned' idea. it even turned out they didn't know about each other which i hadn't thought of and was a welcome bonus, so you can imagine the replies!! ha
i thought we were getting there as when the dust settled i knew that my husband is under enormous pressure at work, being the one to take over the 'family empire' and has been pron to 'getting down' when it has gotten too much on a couple of occasions before. he has always been a wonderful husband and my best friend in the world, i think the fact that he is my best friend makes me feel i can't imagine life without him.
i do trust him 99% but sometimes i get niggled, if he spends too much im on the computer or he's home really late from work etc. so the other day i was using his computer and checked what he had just been looking at while i was downstairs and he'd been reading porn, i lost it. when the dust settle i tried to explain that it's not just the porn (cos i've read so much now that i understand that 99.9% of men look at porn and though i don't like it its not unusual, he's just told me all these years that he wasn't interested) anyway it's really the fact that he couldn't see that this isn't acceptable behaviour for a man who is trying to rebuild his marriage.
thats the reason for this rant, that he had been to counselling that afternoon and couldn't find anything more constructive to do. this is supposedly a man in the depths of despair at what happened.
to top it all off we are in the middle of ivf and i'm so pumped full f drugs in the last few weeks he's lucky to still be alive!!! thats a joke by the way, but not a good time to be upsetting me.
i told him that if we weren't married and he'd done this, that i wouldn't have married him - imeant it, he was devastated, but i am married to him and i'll try my best but he's not making it easy.
i really am trying but this has floored me, where has my wonderful, amazing, handsome, caring, strong man gone - i so wish i could rewind time.
i wish i understood why he did it in the beginning, i know people always say there must have been something wrong with the marriage but i swear to god we have been so happy from the beginning (married 7 years together 9 1/2) sometimes i'd feel that the problem having kids was the pay off!!
i'm sorry i've gone on and my writing is atrocious but i haven't got the energy to punctuate properly etc!!!
thanks for listening

His Angel, I do not know how constructive my advice will be, but here it goes. Your husband seems to be a very smart person, he hit the nail on the head with his comment about what they other man is doing. This sl man is using you, and in the process has become to control you by using your emoitions against you. (I say this because of the way you talk of the feelings you have for him) I do not clam to know all I am just going on what you have wrote. I do have a question for you if you do not mind.
How would you feel if it was your husband doing this? I know from my on experinces of my wife being on sl how I felt. I am just wondering if you would approve if he was feeling this way about someone. Whether this person is in sl or rl they are still real people, and real emotions.

My advice would be to uninstall the game and walk away the pain will go away after time. I said it a previous post time heal all wounds. I beleave this to be true I have first hand experince with this as far as my pain of what happend to me because of sl and what my wife had done. No I was not the one that fell for someone in sl and was missing them I was the one that lost someone I love in rl to someone in sl. We have gotten past the hurt. She does not miss sl or him as much and it gets a little easier everyday for her. All that is left for me to say for now is good luck, and please keep us on this board updated on your progress if you choose to go this way.
Again goodluck his angel...

His Angel: It actually sounds like you've done pretty well with the situation so far. You are exceedingly lucky to have a husband who understands and did not just react with anger. I hope you are not including him when you say you have no one to talk to about it. It sounds as though you can talk to him, and that, therefore, this experience has taught you something very valuable about both of you. I also think this experience will prove very valuable to you in your future career. In fact, it sounds as though you may have it all worked out - my only question is whether your husband knows you have talked to your SL friend since confessing the affair.

I also take it as a good sign that you did not just quit SL, but are relying on your ability to control yourself. Leaving SL for good is like cutting up your credit cards: an admission that you have no control over your own actions. It seems very healthy of you to set limits and stick to them - prove to your husband that both of you can trust you. In fact, you describe an outcome so healthy that I'm not sure what you're asking for advice on. I write mainly just to say congratulations! You have faced an important and difficult challenge, and you seem to have overcome it in fine style.

Since I last wrote, I told my husband about the SL romance I was having... I felt like I had too- as he walked in as I was crying in the bedroom. And despite the extream embarresment I feel...it doesnt compare to the pain I feel every secound of the day. My husband was so simpathetic and loving, during our conversation, one thing that he said that has stuck with me is "this other man is using you for his own gradification, and what he is giving you is a conterfit- it doesnt compare to real love, and its desire'. Wow I have an AMAZING husband... so I cryed even more. I have stuck to limiting my time on SL, however have seen this man again... conversation was regarding the practicalities of working SL and how I would like to stay friends... he was understanding and said that he would like that too... this conversation took me all night too recover from, meaning I felt like I was shaking and nervous for hours. I did consider commiting AV suicide... and uninstalling SL, but what if that makes me think of him even more..? I feel lost in this... the last time I had a crush on a man-I married him! and that was 8 years ago, and I am only 27yrs old... this situation feels so weird and out of my past experiences. But I can not open up fully about what I am going through too any one else besides this sl man, cause I have no one to help me through it.... why you ask....I feel like it gets worse...... wait for it.. ( I am glad I can see your face when you hear) I am training to be a psychologist and I know that I should have known better then too get involved with another man (even if it did start out as an innocent friendship), and I know very well that my friends will think the same! so this blog is it for me...... Any constructive advice?

And thank you Drtime for your interst in my situation- it does bring some comfort:)

Stella, if you cannot convince your husband that your SL friendship is no threat to your marriage, the choice is made for you. You have to choose, and if your SL friend is a true friend, he will understand. Nothing in SL is permanent - not buildings, not friendships - nothing. You owe it to your husband to be honest, and open, and do what he needs to get past this. What you did before was infidelity, and you are lucky he is willing to forgive you for that. I was in the same situation - I came to a different conclusion, but the choices were the same. My wife offered to leave SL for good if that was what I needed. I considered that gracious, but also necessary - if she had not made that offer, she would have been choosing her SL lover over me. I can't tell you what to do, but you are faced with a choice, and "both" is not one of the options. I think you know what you have to do, but you are looking for a third choice that will hurt less. From what you have said, no such third choice exists.

I made a friendship in sl. My husband does not approve. I am only friends with him but there was more in the past and for awhile I thought about him every single day. He is funny and attractive but now I am in reality again and left that fantasy behind. The only problem now is that I still communicate with my friend outside of sl. Also, last night it took everything I had to keep me away from sl because I knew that he was on. I have fun just hanging out with him in sl. He’s very funny and has become a good friend. Its not a romantic relationship and I no longer have the feelings of infatuation that I had. But I feel guilty and my Husband does not approve of this friendship. He has not said you cannot be friends with him, but when I mentioned speaking to my friend in email he got very angry. I never mentioned it again and he has not asked. I’m confused and I feel stuck. I don’t feel like its wrong because we are only friends. But the past upset my husband.(the past involved talking inappropriately to each other and he found out) I don’t want to leave sl behind but I only go on to see my friend. But I am so uncomfortable with my husband around that I may need to leave forever and quit this friendship. I have no idea what to do. Of course I love my husband more than anything in the world, but my friend has become important to me as well. We have a lot in common and we’ve been great support to each other during difficult times. We really have become good friends. What do I do?

Dear Sad, your statement 'if he had spent one tenth the time each day with me, showing me the things he expresses in SL, we would not be in this position.' is so accurate. My husband has barely any interest in our home or travel or entertainment in RL, but in SL, he set up a 'home' (including skybox) with his lover, looked out for concerts, grand balls, beach parties and ballet performances for them to attend. In RL he never takes any photos of us, but he has lots of snapshots of his life in SL (including many erotic ones) which he treasures. They talk about going shopping in SL, but in RL he hates shopping.

He has the zen of detachment, I think. He has not let it interfere with his work yet, although I'm guessing he is on SL when the boss is away and on the weekends when he 'needs to work overtime'. He operates on the premise that even if he can have a few moments in his SL, the happiness of those few moments will help him through his RL till the next time. How sad is that?!

I admire all those who have the courage to confront their spouses and move on.

His Angel I would really like to know what happens as time goes on for you please keep us posted... Good Luck

I am addicted to sl...after only two weeks. I am just now using it in small amounts.. and I am already having massive withdrawals. . I have read each and every entery of the above, and am concerned for my own RL... I broke of a SL romance I was having last night( kissing, talk of fantacy, no sex took place). I did this by telling the person how it was affecting my RL and how deeply I was desiring them- this scared them off(thank God). They had a change of tone (I mean writing) and began to encourage me to get of the PC and spend the time with my husband. And yes I did know this persons identity..(only through SL, but as do many). I crave this persons attention... more then anything else!!! As they are exciting in RL and exotic (from Belgum - yes I am sure!). And I feel jelous over the time they must spend with so many other beautiful people. But am feeling free from guilt, I have not spoken about this to my husband, but I have told him I am addicted ... and he said 'remember that I do trust you, thats all'. So I know he is not stupid- and knows that I have been involved in something I shouldnt have. My sex drive increased dramaticly in the 14 days I have been on there( especially since not sex took place), he has noticed that too. But now I am left to try and mend my heartach on my own... its only early days so I am praying that the pain will go away. WARNING: ALL deep romances start out with a compassionate caring, smart, exciting, TRUSTING "friendship".

God I want the pain to go away!!!!- but is was my fault , one bad choice after another, following my emotions. I hope I have learnt my lesson :( Let me know if you want an update in a few weeks. I am committed to RL marrage.

weary soul - my husband is "in love" in SL as well. He is also a she and in a "lesbian" relationship. He is really a 46 yo man with 4 children under 15....I can't help but wonder what the lesbians he hangs with in SL would think if they new "she" is really a he - sitting at the computer, bald, with two day stubble and hasn't brushed his teeth in days - ignoring his wife and kids. I have read his fiance's blog and she sounds like she's about 14...this has destroyed our lives, and I have filed for divorce. I have a great real life with real friends...we have traveled all over the world - in real life - and he prefers to visit in his fantasy. This is NOT about you, weary. This is an addiction just like alcohol or drugs. To those who say something must have been missing - well, I agree - it was my husband - if he had spent one tenth the time each day with me, showing me the things he expresses in SL, we would not be in this position. He has not worked since March and got fired b/c he overslept - no doubt due to the all nighters - every single night - he spends on SL. I feel sorry for the people that have no real life and must create a reality in SL. I actually felt sorry for his SL girlfriend when I read he blog - she said she's so lonely in SL and met this great "girl" in SL and her life is complete - little does she know (or maybe she does and does not care) he's a middle age man with a wife and kids! I can't see one single good thing that comes out of SL and the more I visit this message board, the more I am thankful that I can let him go and move forward in the ral world. It's like that movie AI - I want reality, not fantasy. I like the touch of human skin. Good luck weary - I feel your pain!

It's comforting to know that I am not alone in this nightmare. People say that something must have been missing from our relationship for my husband to have become addicted to SL. I realize now, that what was missing, was him. It's the same old story of what came first, the chicken or the egg.

After the discovery (March 2006), of his SL lover, (broke my heart) he was all ready to get divorced on the grounds of 'we grew apart'. I begged for us to go to counselling. I so very much wanted things to return to our normal loving relationship. I always loved him and was waiting for him to get out of his 'funk'. I didn't want our sons to find out what their father had done. He refused counselling until I told him that if he wanted a divorce, he had to explain to our sons the real reason - his online SL love affair. We ended up going to counselling.

He promised to stop all contact with his lover. He was sorry. (NOT!) Our relationship was very strained. I took it one day at a time. Lot's of Ekhart Tolle and Oprah and lots of gardening. Lot's of pretending that it didn't happen. I had to forgive and let it go, the counsellor said.

He had said his SL relationship was purely business. She was a graphics designer and he was a scriptor. Silly old naive little me!

It's July 2008 now, and just a couple of weeks ago, I found some SL files on our home computer dated Dec 2007. I asked him about them and he said he didn't know how they got there and they weren't his! (I'm no geek, but I do have a background in IT). So I snooped somemore and found his login and passwords to his sl email accounts. Totally illegal, I believe.

It's true, curiosity killed the cat. Just when I thought maybe we could really overcome this major low in our marriage, I discovered he had NOT stopped contacting his SL lover. There were lots of emails alluding to the wonderful cybersex life they were having. And just how MUCH he loved her and always will. Really quite touching. Who would ever think he could still say such deep and romantic and sexy things! The good thing is that I could read through the entire relationship details and I didn't get overly dramatic about it, maybe a tear or two were shed. It appeared that their relationship petered out in Dec 2007, but it could just be they are going under the guise of new avatars. He said he would always be there if she wanted to start up the relationship again. My husband is a female in SL. He was having a lesbian relationship. In RL, he is an over 50 balding introvert with a sunken chest and beer belly. But, they say it doesn't matter, because it's the person inside that counts, not his gender or race.

I also see that he is now making money from a camping bot that he scripted. He is a gifted coder. He has at least 25 avatars. So, all those Linden stats are really not accurate! He is also very active in the sex oriented adult communities. He saved some of the online encounters in his gmail and they were very funny with all the sex talk going on. (Funny how the one person will carry on with the sex talk and the other disappears to have a great wank and the person yakking away says 'hello? ... still there???'!)

I thought I could carry on with this relationship with the 2% of mistrust. It is very difficult to recover from online infidelity - his love is but a click away. But I thought I could and now I know I am stupid! At home, our interaction is fine on the surface, intimacy is still at it's low, because we know where he's getting all his action. How could I ever compare favorably with pixelated perfection and a steady hand.

Looking back, the stupid thing is how much TIME I myself have wasted reading all about Second Life, cybersex, internet infidelity and marriage repair. So, in some ways, I am an addict myself!

So what is keeping me here with a husband that has a cybersex addiction and a SL addiction and probably a SL lover? A husband that has fallen out of love with me and is really here because of our sons? It's the thought of telling our sons our marriage is a sham, our family is a sham and their father is a sham and that life as they know it is going to be forever changed. As soon as I build up enough courage to do that, I will let my husband go to his Second Life and I will take another path in RL without him.

I may be getting there. I still have feelings for the husband from many years ago. The reality of the NOW and the FUTURE is what I have to face.

addicted to person on sl: I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with DrTime. ;^) If you have to hide your SL relationship from your RL person, you can't continue to have them both. You HAVE to make a choice - if you want to be worthy of your RL person, that person HAS to come first. DrTime is also right that, everyone else's opinions notwithstanding, the choice has to be yours alone. How do you do it? You just do it. You make a conscious choice every time you hover the cursor over that green hand icon. Which person you choose is up to you, but only one of them will help you paint a room, enjoy a dinner at sunset with you and keep you warm at night.

Since I am not into Sl all I can offer is my opinon. What do you want more your partner or sl? That is a question you must ask yourself. I wish I had more to advice to give, but I do not. My thoughts on sl are differnet than others so go with you gut insinct. You will know which is right...
again Pardon Spelling... Good Luck addicted to person on sl

I dont want to uninstall sl -I do enjoy going on sometimes, but I also had a fling on sl and the person is still there and we still talk. I hide this from my partner. I need to uninstall but I wont. How do you do it?

Time is all that I found that will help with healing. Trust is a hard thing to give once it has been broken. I hate to sound like a old timer, but my grandmother told me that time heals all wounds. I know it sounds corny, but it is true. Good Luck tired

tired: My wife was very gracious and accommodating once I was able to get across to her how devastated I was by her infidelity. She agreed to do anything necessary to get us through it, up to and including leaving SL. That went a long way toward making things better, but what made the most difference was the hours and hours we talked, during which she answered questions like "what changed in our relationship that you had to go outside it for what you needed?" The answer was not easy to hear, but it helped me understand how I had become complacent - let the romance leach from our marriage - and it gave me resolve to set things right. I am more help with the house and the kids now, we date more, and are more affectionate than we have been in years (19 years together, 13 of them married). I still struggle with trust, but I think the worst is long since over, and we have our spark back. I hope that is of some help to you - you have my deepest sympathy, support and compassion.

hi
has anyone got through this and forgiven their other half. how do you deal with the hurt and betrayal.

WtBD: I'm curious whether your husband knows, or cares to know, what you do in SL (you didn't mention relationships, but the words "single" and "fantasy" did appear). Obviously, the difference with you is that you are able to maintain balance between RL and SL, and therefore, from my perspective, as long as you're honest with your husband, there IS no BIG deal! Even my wife takes care of herself and our household (and we had a great date Friday night!).

Meri, I won't flame you. I regret that it took so many words to try and reach some understanding with DrTime. I kept thinking I was being clear, and he kept indicating that he wasn't getting what I was saying. I will take under advisement your suggestion that threads over a certain critical mass should go off the board.

LOL...my point exactly. Anything can become an addiction if you let it...even debating on a Blog...
I'm sorry for your health problems Meri but I'm a nurse at a hospital in RL so I still have to brush my hair. Too bad we never met inworld, you sound like alot of fun!

What's the BIG Deal?

PS - at the risk of getting flamed, I feel I must comment on the amount of space in this blog taken up by Dave Wesner and Dr. Time. It's not my blog, but I think it's safe to say that when someone's blog becomes dominated by a one-on-one discussion by two other people, it's time for those people to take their discussion to email.

Sorry, I made a mistake in the above post...My RL husband plays PS2 : )

Oh it most assuredly is a big deal. Haven't you read these peoples stories? I too am a 52 year old woman with three children and two grandchildren (really!) and I began to get addicted to SL when I got sick and couldn't work for a while. Yes, Second Life lets you do fun things you may not be able to do in real life. You can be young and beautiful with a few mouse clicks! But I started staying up all night playing, stopped cleaning house, I even stopped brushing my hair. Why bother? My virtual hair is beautiful and never needs brushing! My kids got really mad at me because I stopped cooking dinner and we had takeout all the time. I lost fitness, got back pain, even got a superficial blood clot in my leg from sitting in a hard chair for too many hours. I'm lucky it wasn't a deep vein clot, or I might have died.

I still want to play, but there HAS to be balance. You have to get your RL work done, you have to eat right and exercise and get enough sleep. If SL is keeping you from doing those things, you have to stop.

I'm a 52 year old woman with 3 grown children and 2 grandchildren. I've been happily married for 27 years to the same man. We go out with family and friends and do things other couples do. I see my kids and grandchildren usually everyday. My question is this? What's wrong with living out a fantasy in SL? We all have fantasies. We all wish at one tme or another we could live in someone elses shoes whether it be a hollywood celebrity, sports star or rockstar. In world I am 32 and single...I have a beautiful house, I'm a DJ at a wonderful club, I've even had some modeling jobs. Would I ever be able to do this is RL??? Of course not! It's my fantasy world and I love every minute I play the game. While I play my SL my husband plays his PS2...btw, he forms teams on his games and manages them..ha! Will someone please tell me what is the BIG deal?

do you learn to forgive someone for getting involved in sl. i discovered that my hubby of 7 years was using sl to communicate with 2 different women, we had looked at sl together and set up the acc but i got bored and thought my hubby did too. i didn't realise there was so much sex etc on there. anyway he was in contact with these women for about 6 months, and were using email and im to contact each other outside of sl, i think they did all the roleplay filth on sl and sent constant emails to each other.
my husband is one of the most kind gentle loving people i have ever met and we had such a great marriage and friendship we had a very active social life, were trying for a baby, looking at buying a new house, had lovely holidays, he was my best friend and i would have trusted him with my life. my life was shattered when i discovered the sl stuff.
he stopped sl and emailing etc and poured his heart out to me, this has really broken him and he regrets it so much. i know he would never actually, physically touch another woman, but the stuff i read (and believe me i read everything) just sounded like another person.
i want to move on so much, but i've always had a problem with forgiveness, which he has been aware of, ( i tend not to row with people so its not usually a problem)
i was so glad to find this site as i haven't been able to talk to anyone about this.
i found out in march this year and i feel like i'm in a bubble. i don't expect anyone to reply to this it just feels good getting it out.
like everyone in this position there is soooo much more to this story but my brain starts to ache with it all.
thanks for listening

I have lost my husband to SL. He was a recovering sex addict for 5 years, and then found SL last November. He told me it was harmless fun, and I was trusting enough to beleive it! Within 5 months lost his job (got fired) and is now up to 10 - 15 hours a day on SL. He is a she in SL (wonder if they know that!) and is engaged - to a woman. I have asked kindly, pleaded and begged for him to stop, but it means more to him than me or his 4 children. The scary thing is that his therapist supports his addiction and sees him developing life skills - OMG - in whose life?!?...he's 46 years old, unemployed, not looking for work, and has not one real life friend. He is about to loose his family and does not care. SL addiction is no different than being an alcholic, drug addict or gambler - when it takes over your life, you have a problem. I removed the cable modem and he called the police on me - now that's desperation! I marvel at the fact that if he had spent a fraction of the time, even just one hour a day, talking with and doing things with me and the kids, we most likely would not be in this situation. And it amazes me that he spends virtual time, with avatars going to the places around the world that we went to in RL. For many, SL is an insidious destructive menacing place. For those that say it is good clean fun, there is sure a bunch of porn invovled - just read the things the players chat about.... what a sad and incredible waste of time.

Thank you for your thoughts Trying and Recovering Addict. You are right about the friends thing. I guess that is why it so hard to quit. When none of my friends are online, it is not much fun because I am not seeking new friends. I have the friend that I am closest to moved into my email communication. The others are strictly in sl though. It does make me sad to think about losing our connection.

unhappy in SL,

Very nice to see that you are searching for help. SL is a very hard habit to break. One thing I found was the collateral built up that kept me going back: friends, clothes, places, lindens, etc. I spent so much time building those things up plus most importantly, the relationships, I could not just bare to leave it. Finally, I just gather enough strength to close my SL account. They ofcourse do the cruel thing of keeping your account for 1 month allowing you to un-do your account closing. So I had to summon enough self-control to not take them up on that for the 30 days. Then they still keep the account but require a real dollar fee to reinstate the account. Since I never wanted to spend a cent on SL, the fee was enough to deter me from restarting my account.

But then, I missed my friends on SL after a couple of months and started a new account. Good thing was that the new account was so bare and so noob looking that I felt like it was so much work to start over again and the appeal had disappeared. That slowly fazed out and I finally close that second account too and uninstalled SL.

I don't know if you can do the same, but that is how I got the monkey off my back. I do believe that everyone has there own path to success and I hope you find yours. Wish you the best of luck, but don't add me as a friend. ;)

------
Born: July, 2007
Died: November, 2007
Reborn: January, 2008
Died: February, 2008

I got scared into quitting
I knew my fiance would leave me
I developed real feelings for someone
but learned it was about a fantasy
I just tried to spend more time with my fiance' have other interests, started reading,playing big fish games, anything to distract me
I go on occasionally and I make sure I do not drink if i go on

Have not been in this blog in a while and sorry to see that it has turned so hostile. I have been in SL now for 8 months and am so addicted that I have agreed to see a counselor. I am in it about 4 to 5 hours a day but dream about it and think about it all the time. Even check to see what friends I have online when I am at work. I have had two relationships in sl and both resulted in a state of turmoil for me. There are times when I love SL and times when I hate it. But I know that it is not good for me or my rl marriage.

Guess the purpose of this post is to reinforce the idea that SL is a very addictive emotional experience and to ask for advice on gradually overcoming my addiction to it. Who has been successful at quitting and how did you do it?

"you see it as [a way] to set your marriage straight."

Final and definitive proof you haven't paid attention to a thing I've said.

Well, it seems this debate is growing hostile. Never was my intentions. I will say that you and I will never agree on what is right or wrong in that game Dave. I see Second Life as the crack cocaine of the internet, and you see it as away to set your marriage straight. Let me be say this and as far as I care it can stop here, I doubt you will let it though. I have read and seen from as much as I can see from your post that you are a victim, spokesman, counsler, doctor, film maker, and several other trades. I have learned this from life you can be a jack of all trades but a master of none, and btw Souring Ga. Peach is not blameing you for what has happend in her life, but you seem to defend what her and I beleave what is wrong in the grand scale of sl. So to all Good luck I will continue to post as I see fit just as the rest of you will. Again Good luck

Wow is right. This is a heated topic and everyone should be able to express their feelings and opinions and own experiences -hopefully free from judgement by others and free from being attacked by others. I think if Dave believes in "Poly" relationships, that's his right and we all have to be a little less quick to judge the next person. I've done terrible things on sl. Terrible because I lied. For awhile I was convinced I should uninstall it. I see people that I have met on sl, still there, 24/7 it seems, owning clubs, and pretty much avoiding the real world. That's their business. They'll figure it out or they won't. I think sl can be done in moderation-depending on each individual. At one point, I couldn't handle sl and had no business being there because I abused sl, I abused my loved one. Because I lied-a year has past since I started sl and in that year, I almost lost my relationship. Since then I'VE changed. SL isn't dangerous to me anymore. I will flat out refuse any type of interaction with the opposite sex if they appear to be interested in pursuing something with me. I recently found a sim about spirituality and I'm excited and hoping I can just use sl as a reference-I spoke to a person from another Country about meditation, and that was exciting to me-to possibly have a way to talk with people from different COuntries about religion, spirituality etc. I'm just saying it really comes down to the person and what they will allow in their life. I felt like I was addicted and I was a victim. I let myself get addicted to sl, I let myself become attracted to another man, I let myself become absorbed into a fantasy. Its up to the person and where they are in their life and where they want to be. Just my opinion. THanks for letting me share.

Peach: "Wow Dave you should really start your own website if you want to bore people with your constant blabbering and self promotion of your SL business ventures!"

Um ... if I were "promoting" the work I do, I would post links to the website, give people actual information, etc. I brought up the movies to illustrate that most of the time my wife and I spend in SL is spent on a legitimate business venture. Of course, I've done so civilly, while you and DrTime seem to feel entitled to insult and belittle me. I will continue to be civil, because I well know the pain you have both experienced (though you give me no credit for having been in the same situation and having worked it out).

"you could barely wait 60 minutes before responding to Dr. Times post"

I apologize if there was some time limit on here that one must wait before posting. Is it spelled out somewhere?

"It no more surprises me that you now think swinging and 'poly-relationships' are great because this is what you need to convince yourself of now to save/stay in your marriage."

Wow - you are also choosing to ignore everything I've said about what saved my marriage.

"it doesn't surprise me that you are now convinced what lead your spouse and you there (and what continues to keep you coming back instead of addiction) is just your love of 'movie making'."

Do you believe I am lying about the time we spend in SL or the reason why we went in in the first place? Do you have evidence that we went into SL for some other reason...? Or are you, like DrTime, so convinced of your own preconceptions that you are certain I just *must* be lying because my account differs from what you would expect?

"People come here to vent about Sl not to hear your constant lenghty lectures on the merits of it."

You and DrTime both feel entitled to speak on behalf of everyone who comes here - have you somehow been given that authority? I came here, not to "vent about SL," but to try and find some information on how other people dealt with the heartbreak of a loved one's SL relationships. My wife and I found a way out of that situation by working on our marriage in RL - why is that so hard for you to understand? I AM talking on the subject! This is Eric's blog - if he wants to kick me off for not following the formula you and DrTime want me to, that is his right. If you think I should not come here and advise people to discuss SL with their loved ones before going in, that is your right. If your sensibilities are offended by the entirely separate subject of my wife's and my continuing relationships in SL, that is your right as well. But I would ask you to respond to what I actually say (e.g. we saved our marriage by working on our marriage in RL) rather than what you imagine my position to be. I would also ask you to stop directing your anger for your husband at me - I did not create your situation; I only reported on my own similar situation, and how I was able to resolve it. THAT is what I, and I am sure others, came here for. This subject is extremely important to me - I feel a great deal of compassion for people hurt by a loved one's SL infidelity and/or addiction, and I disagree that this is an inappropriate place for me to discuss the subject.

Wow Dave you should really start your own website if you want to bore people with your constant blabbering and self promotion of your SL business ventures! You really must have nothing to do but play SL and wait for someone to respond on here as you could barely wait 60 minutes before responding to Dr. Times post. All the paragraphs you write are more of the same. We all get it you think SL is great and will try to convince anyone who will listen. It no more surprises me that you now think swinging and 'poly-relationships' are great because this is what you need to convince yourself of now to save/stay in your marriage. Anymore than it doesn't surprise me that you are now convinced what lead your spouse and you there (and what continues to keep you coming back instead of addiction) is just your love of 'movie making'. Needles to say I think it's clear to everyone here of what a joke that is since you spend most of your time on here talking about how great Sl & your partners are and how they leave you feeling like a silly school girl in love just like your wife feels with her lovers. Denial is a state of mind and you are living proof of that my friend! If you want to continue to ramble please take it off the board and email him in person as this is an SL addiction site not Daves personal essay page. Hawk your Sl movies somewhere else as this board was meant for more than that and by now it's just insulting! People come here to vent about Sl not to hear your constant lenghty lectures on the merits of it.

DrTime: "Your goal on here or as I see it, is that if you are honest and open than everything will be ok. You also say that it is not going to work for everyone."

You're confusing two separate statements. First, I said that everyone going into SL who's in a relationship needs to be absolutely honest with his/her partner about what they intend to do in there; what their rules and boundaries are, and they need to remain absolutely transparent about what DOES go on. That will only not work for people who can't be truthful with their partners. What I said wouldn't work for everyone was the added component that made me realize how little threat my wife's entanglements really were: relationships of my own. That's the part I've said from the beginning was not likely to work for most people, and the thing you seem to think I'm saying everyone should do. Take issue with my opinions - that's what we're here to do - but let's try and make sure we understand what each other's positions ARE first.

"Where I have to draw the line is when you start giving advice on when it is time to call a lawyer"

That's valid. Take issue with that - that's your right. Sherry portrayed her husband as saying, in essence, "screw you, you can't make me act like your husband, I'm going to do what I want, and just try and stop me." If you think that's a man who can be reasoned with, then you're entitled to that opinion. I say that from the account she shared with us, she's better off without the bum. I'm entitled to that opinion, too.

"I will have to disagree with the drug addiction statement that you made I have read comments of people that have what I would call panic attacks, if they where not able to get on to sl. That is a physcial withdrawal."

That is a physical manifestation of an emotional withdrawal. Basic pharmacology. I had about a 2-month sustained panic attack when my wife started fooling around in SL - that doesn't make it a physical phenomenon, just the physical symptom of an emotional one. People ceasing long-term chronic marijuana use probably have physical symptoms of their emotional reaction to it; that doesn't make marijuana physically addictive.

"As far as sl being used in moderation, if you read most of the comments here I would have to say no it can not."

Can you at least recognize that "the comments here" are mainly from one particular perspective? Do you read boards dedicated to building or scripting in SL? I venture you'd get a different perspective there. And so what are you saying of me? Are you still saying I'm "addicted," because although you have no evidence whatsoever that I am, based on your research, and complete lack of firsthand experience, you have concluded that I just *must* be? That really is a question; I'd really like an answer.

"As far as my sl experinces I spent about two months compiling information, and I would have to say from what I seen, there is way to much temptation for sl to be a postive influence on a marraige."

I have already addressed this issue. Please acknowledge that I made the following statement: "To clarify one point, my marriage is not better because of SL. It is better because my wife's infidelity in SL caused me to wake up and become a better husband in RL." Do you now acknowledge that I'm not saying SL improved my marriage?

Other questions I'd like you to answer, now that I believe I have answered ALL of yours:

"If we can tell each other anything that happens in there, why hide anything?"

"I have said that people should know what to expect before going in, and you seem to think that that is a bad idea. I am fascinated that you are angered by the idea that rules need to be set before people in relationships enter SL, yet you offer no alternative. Do you believe rules should NOT be set?"

"'It is just a matter of time before one of you cross the line or the rules that you have set forth, in general most people do not like rules and will take great lengths to break them. This will happen.'
So how is a regular marriage immune from this?"

"[if SL can't be done in moderation], then what of our work in SL filmmaking?" (i.e. do you believe movies aren't made in SL? That they aren't valid? Or that the people making them are just "too tempted" to make the whole enterprise worthwhile?)

That should do for now. In short, you accuse me of flawed reasoning, but you haven't shown a single flaw in my reasoning. Meanwhile, I acknowledge that you're entitled to your opinion, however one-sided the information on which it's based - why can't you afford me the same accommodation?

Dave, suffice it to say we will continue to disagree on the right or wrongs of sl and what I beleave to be a moral wrong you see nothing wrong with. I will have to disagree with the drug addiction statement that you made I have read comments of people that have what I would call panic attacks, if they where not able to get on to sl. That is a physcial withdrawal. As far as "your point blank questions" here is an answer for the last one.

"Just what is it you think I am trying to do?"

I am sure from your perspecitve your advice that to be open and honest with each other about sl is what you honestly belive. That being said nobody and I meen nobody is 100% honest with each other. Your goal on here or as I see it, is that if you are honest and open than everything will be ok. You also say that it is not going to work for everyone. I will give you that. Where I have to draw the line is when you start giving advice on when it is time to call a lawyer, if I had taken that advice my marraige of allmost 22 years would be over, reread my first post. That being said it is my opion that the advice given by you can be damaging, and misleading.

As far as sl being used in moderation, if you read most of the comments here I would have to say no it can not. It is just like a drug and nothing you say will ever change my mind about that. Would you say that a drug addict could use drugs in moderation?
Yes it does have physcial and huge emotional withdrawls, emotional withdrawls can and will lead to physcial problems. Read any site about emotional problems and you will find that they will cause physcial problems. So if my job created such problems and gave into the temptions that sl does I would find another line of work. That is what I would do I am not giving you advice. As far as my sl experinces I spent about two months compiling information, and I would have to say from what I seen, there is way to much temptation for sl to be a postive influence on a marraige. It appears on the surface to be good, in the end most of the time it is not. At best it is a place for singles to meet. That is all the good if any good can be found there. It seems you are useing fantasy logic to justify your beliefs.
Good Luck...

DrTime: "Dave, good catch, I am glad you took the time to re-read that post. That just tells me you are starting to look a little closer to what I am saying."

Actually, I've been trying to figure out exactly what you *are* saying, but you keep not answering when I ask you point-blank.

"BTW you used race car driving as one of your points how often does a race car driver have a wreck???"

Exactly - I used an example with real risks. I think that, within that analogy, we could say that when my wife took a boyfriend in SL without discussing it with me first, she went pretty hard into the tire wall. When I unwittingly broke the "no voice with girlfriends" rule, I spun out into traffic myself. But how many race drivers make it through a career still alive? My marriage is fun again, moving much faster, and I think we have a steady enough hand on the wheel that we can run a few hot laps without killing what we are. My issue with you is your certainty that that can't happen.

"As far as morals go no one harmed is your stance fine.
Never said they were, not yet anyway."

Then we agree that, depending on one's definition of morality, my wife and I may not be doing anything immoral.

"in sl there is a win or lose platform. That being can I score the next women or man can I build the biggest house or can I be a millionaire?"

Those aren't SL's rules, though - those are the goals of individuals IN SL. Neither my wife nor I plays by those rules, and if everyone's not playing by the same rules, it's not a game. Individuals may decide to treat it like one, play games within it, or extend their RL competitiveness into it, but that doesn't make SL, itself, a game. SL is more like a park - you can go there to play games, or just have a picnic.

"Find a site that is suited for it and give me the address and we will talk about the religion there."

From what I've seen, there would be little point, and I never wanted to talk about religion here - I just wondered if your views of morality were the product of one. You have essentially confirmed that, so I have no more to say on the subject.

"if this was oh lets say a drug addiction site or maybe an alcohol addiction site, would you still be preaching that if done correctly according to you that these people would not have an addiction."

First, I'm not "preaching" anything. You still haven't acknowledged that I'm not recommending that anyone follow the course I have charted. I've said that I found peace with my wife's SL experience, and that a PART of that was my own relationships in SL, but I've also said repeatedly that that approach is not for everyone, and that what has saved my marriage was my wife's and my working ON our marriage. A crucial part of that work was making her realize, as I already did, that she was sinking into an addiction, and that she had to use discipline if she was to continue. Another point-blank question for you: Do you believe SL can be had in moderation? Or do you believe it should just never be touched by anyone, no matter their purposes there? And if that, then what of our work in SL filmmaking? Is it just relationships in SL you have a problem with? Let's define the problem here. A problem, too, with the drug analogy: SL may induce psychological dependence, but it lacks the physically addictive properties of a drug like alcohol, opiates, barbiturates, amphetamine, etc. At most, it's like marijuana - easy to get into the habit of, but devoid of *physical* withdrawal (the emotional ones being a different subject entirely).

"but please do not try and play the healer and noer of all that is right in a sl addiction or the ones who have loved ones in a sl addiction."

I've never tried to say I "know all that is right in an SL addiction." All I've tried to do is present my own experiences, first as a victim, then as a survivor, and inform people of the dangers of SL, and the need to be careful and informed. You still have not answered my point-blank questions about why you believe that is a bad thing. Everyone's experience with SL is different - mine is more different than most on here, but it is important for people to understand that a range of responses is available for the victims of another's SL addiction. My perspective is just as valid here as yours.

"I see what you are trying to do, but it does not belong here allthough you seem to think it does."

Just what is it you think I am trying to do?

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